Report of Conversation Club, Friday 17th April 2009
THEME – The Gender divide/Differences between the genders
Introduction
At the end of the previous week’s Conversation Club, the discussion had turned to the question of whether there is a pay gap between men and women. This week we started by posing this question and asking participants what they think of when they hear the expression ‘gender divide’.
The state of emancipation in Senegal
A (male] Senegalese participant started the discussion by saying that he thought that women were catching up in the gender divide in Senegal. He stated that women are starting to earn better money and are being offered better conditions. He said that it was clear that not just men, but women are seen in education and business settings and that women are free to do the jobs which men have historically done.
The President, Abdoulaye Wade has made several efforts to work towards equality between men and women. This has included appointing a female Prime Minister[i] during his first term and the passing of a gender parity bill in relation to proportional representation in elections. There was some negative reaction to the gender parity bill as it was said to be contrary to the realities of a predominantly Muslim society. Women are not proportionally represented at a government level in Senegal, but it was commented that this is also the case world-wide, including in France, the UK and the US.
It was generally thought that whilst some steps have been taken towards gender equality, there is still a very long way to go.
Women in business
A participant suggested that whilst it is possible for women to find jobs in Senegalese businesses, their role there is usually seen as transitory or short term; as something that they are doing before fulfilling their roles as wives and mothers. This impacts on promotion opportunities. Men are also often paid more for the same job and women’s participation is not valued as equal. An example was also given of women in the villages who do all the work, but are not recompensed fairly. A French participant said that the issue of the pay divide exists in France as well. A further example was given of pay equality not just being about the same job, but about the same qualification levels. For example in the UK, school-leavers moving into construction are better paid than school-leavers going into hairdressing. The majority of construction workers are men, hairdressers women; the school-leavers are qualified the same, but the market salary rates are lower for the predominantly female industry.
A participant said that it is very difficult to get a job as a woman in some careers, for example journalism and in leadership roles. It was agreed that secretarial positions were often seen as ‘suitable’ women’s roles, as well as advertising or customer service jobs where looks were often valued more highly that relevant skills or education. It was thought that it is important for women to value themselves and not to settle for jobs below their skills levels, but to fight for recognition and be role models for younger women.
Gender equality, numbers or mind-set?
The Senegalese women in the discussion were united in their concern about people’s, and especially men’s, concept of what gender equality actually is. They were particularly worried that it is perceived as being about numbers – ie equal pay, or proportional representation, rather than being about a change of mind-set and values, and that many men just don’t accept the fundamental concepts of emancipation. They perceived that there is a great difference between functional parity and mathematical parity. These women want to see equality of access to education, jobs and salaries based on a fair evaluation of abilities and competences whilst being respected as an equal partner by their husbands and male peers.
One (female) Senegalese participant was at pains to point out that men and women are not ‘the same’ but are complementary and need to work together. She also said that equality wasn’t possible especially without the help of men. She asked the men, those present and in general, to please help in the struggle for better conditions. She said she doubted that gender equality would ever be possible in Senegal.
Economic imperative, cultural clash and domestic work
A participant suggested that whilst there was a social and economic imperative for women to have equal rights to work and to pay, Senegalese culture expects women to put supporting their men first. Strict Muslims expect women to stay in the compound (in purdah[ii]) which makes it impossible for them to work outside of the home.
Whilst Senegalese women might find that they can compete with men outside the home for an equal footing, they are still expected to fulfill all the domestic duties and often without a say in decision-making. This means that even more so than in other societies, that modern Senegalese women feel that there just isn’t enough time in their lives. A UK participant stated that birth control and the advent of white goods (washing machines, dishwashers, hoovers etc) had contributed massively to women’s liberation in the West, and that similar progress might help Senegalese women too because it was evident that the domestic burden here is huge.
Domestic work, such as caring for children, shopping, cooking and cleaning were clearly seen as ‘women’s work’ by most of the Senegalese men in the group. Someone suggested that women could ‘sub-contract’ their domestic responsibilities to domestic workers (bonnes) to enable them to go out and work. Another participant suggested that this does not deal with the issue of gender segregated division of labour. Further, it was commented that in this situation men often see the bonne as having replaced the wife.
A Senegalese woman suggested that “modern women” are simply not accepted by Senegalese culture. She said for personal and financial reasons, women need to work, but that this is often not acceptable to men-folk and she knew of examples of women who had divorced or been divorced upon being given an ultimatum by their husbands – to fulfill their domestic roles, or to choose their working lives. Another woman gave the example of a friend who was promoted to an Executive role and was asked to move to a different region in Senegal. When she told her equally successful husband he said, ‘I didn’t marry a man’ and did not “allow” her to move. Group members felt that perhaps men, understandably historically the stronger and more dominant gender group, were scared of giving away power and scared of powerful women. The UK participant was keen to confirm that this was not only a Senegalese issue, and though less prevalent that she knew of similar examples in the UK.
Polygamy, religion and sexual equality
A non Senegalese participant asked if it was possible to have any kind of gender equality when men can take four marital partners and women can only have one. It was stated that religious constraints make it not possible for women to have more than one partner. It was agreed that men and women are judged differently. A (female) Senegalese participant described the heated reactions she has had from her male peers when she has suggested polyandry.
One (male Muslim) Senegalese participant said that for him it would be impossible to have more than one wife at the same time as true to his faith because Islam clearly states that you have to love and treat each wife in exactly the same manner. He did not think that this was humanly possible. Another participant said that in a survey 9 out of 10 women asked stated that they would prefer to be a sole wife. It was suggested that women are regarded as objects and are not asked for their opinions or input in decision-making, including in the question of taking further wives.
There was a feeling from some members of the group that some men use religion as a cover for their promiscuous sexual behaviour, and that in fact, they are not good Muslims in doing so. An example was given that some men justify being adulterous by saying they are looking for another wife. A participant explained that polygamy existed before Islam, at a time when men had hundreds of wives, and has had to fit to the culture rather than the other way. Examples were also given of the many Christian men who take advantage of the polygamy laws, showing that culture, not religion influences this behaviour.
Further examples were given of a Nigerian king who had 30 wives and divorced 26 after Presidential pressure, and Marabouts who take five, six or more wives. Whilst it was commented that urban and rural attitudes do differ, the issue remained that polygamy often negatively affects the women and children. Four or five generations ago men took more wives. Before the advent of Islam and Catholicism in Africa, Animists took twenty or so wives. Islam was an improvement in terms of polygamy. It protected women from behaviours that occurred before, such as female infanticide.
An important point was made that women don’t tend to have had access to the Koran – it has been men who have interpreted it, and have done this to their own advantage.
Children
Whist there is now near equality in participation at primary levels in schools between boys and girls, these figures drop significantly at senior school age, particularly in rural areas. This was thought to be largely because girls are expected to contribute to domestic work, and that their training in their home is more important for their futures. It was commented that boys are left to their own devices and have much more free time and freedom to wander, whereas girls are expected to stay in the house.
If girls get pregnant, which is common in village communities, it is the girl who is judged, but not the boy. There are many girls who fall pregnant between the ages of 13 to 15 and they are not allowed to stay in school. The government is now trying to tackle this issue, but school-teachers are not supportive. One member suggested that this was because it is often the teachers themselves that are responsible for the pregnancies, quoting a case in Casamance where a teacher had made three of four girls in his class pregnant.
A (male) Senegalese participant suggested that many young women knew what they were doing in seducing their teachers, saying that he had witnessed these behaviours himself, and which include making visits to the teacher, flattery and asking for home tutoring. It was understood that whilst it is true that young women might be provocative or infatuated with their teacher, in no way does this justify rape and that the teachers have a professional and moral responsibility (as adults) not to engage with their female students. An example was also given of male teachers who had used their privileged access to student information to follow and hassle female students.
It’s all about the money – and the role of the family
A (male) Senegalese participant suggested that 90% of Senegalese women are materialistic and not interested in a man’s virtues as an individual, but just his financial worth. He suggested that they are not serious and often take multiple partners, perhaps having one for the money and one to go to the beach with. The question was asked whether this was because it is difficult for women to be independent financially and so there was a lot of pressure to secure a long-term future.
The womens’ responses included someone suggesting that there was often a lot of pressure from a girls’ family – from her parents and brothers in particular – to find a wealthy partner. Another participant suggested that girls could be ‘spoilt’ by their newfound comparative wealth and power when they got to an age where they could go out, and that it was understandable that once they had had material things they would want more. Another said that everyone aspires to a better life and that it was natural for women to want to find someone who could help raise their standard of living and give them security and a better standard of life. Although the ‘90%’ was challenged, there was general agreement that there are a lot of young women who are materialistic and that some of them are just looking for an easy life. The UK participant suggested that this happens everywhere in the world, like ‘WAG wannabes’[iii] in the UK. In contrast to non-polygamous cultures, it was also suggested that married men were considered as available and could be seen as appealing to young women looking for financial security.
One participant agreed that the family tends to massively influence choosing partners for girls and suggested it would be much better if instead of pushing their daughters to find rich husbands, they instead encouraged them to become well educated and financially independent. In response, it was suggested that the reality is that mostly parents don’t have the means to guide their children. Many parents have many children and often don’t even have enough money to feed them all in an evening, let alone the capacity or the time to give them this type of guidance. Someone said that the most dignified approach was to have a modest family and treat them well.
International perspectives
A (male) French participant said that he had the impression that women in Senegal had much more freedom than their Muslim sisters in other cultures. He gave the example of Pakistan where it is rare to see women in the street, and when they are covered. He said that when he had traveled in Pakistan with his wife, he had felt that he was judged negatively for traveling with a woman in public. He said that in Senegal women seemed to have much more freedom over their movements and dress.
A Senegalese woman responded that it is certainly true that young women dress much more often in a modern or western style today than ten years ago. She said that you were much more likely to see girls and young women dressed like this in the town centre, where they were unlikely to bump into any family elders, than in the local neighbourhood. She pointed out that in Yoff, for example, with its Lebu traditions, girls would be unlikely to dress in an ‘immodest’ fashion for fear of being judged.
A US participant said she believed that there had been big changes in the past 10 to 15 years in terms of women’s attitudes to what it is they want from life. She suggested that young women are less likely to define themselves in terms of motherhood and domestic roles and that many women – perhaps more likely those from the ‘progressive’ coastal areas – look down on women who are ‘stay at home moms’ or housewives as being unfulfilled or not liberated. Radical ideas include paying housewives and having national cross sector pay-scales based on qualifications and experiences. She also mentioned that the first bill Barack Obama had passed into law was one to help women to better fight against the gender pay divide.
It was suggested that Western men’s attitudes often differed from the majority Senegalese male perspective in that there is more mutual understanding and a mutual responsibility for the running of the home. If a woman works, men are more likely to contribute to the cooking, cleaning, shopping and child raising, taking active responsibility rather than seeing this as a woman’s role. One western participant suggested that many women simply would not accept anything else.
A Senegalese participant said that she had been struck by women’s behaviour in Canada. She said that in times past there, women were oppressed, but now women are much more powerful and she had seen examples of women dominating men.
Domestic violence
A Senegalese participant asked whether domestic violence was common and acceptable in western society. It was agreed that it does occur in Western society, but is often associated with drug and alcohol problems and is usually hidden. One participant said that there had been a UN report from a few years ago that had said that something like 80% of women in Egypt had said that they thought it was acceptable for their partners to hit them, including for reasons such as not having fulfilled their domestic duties, compared with much lower statistics in the UK and US. In Europe and the US, women are protected by law from domestic violence and participants knew of examples of men who had been successfully prosecuted by their wives/partners.
Cultural change and the future
The group members were asked how they would bring up their own children and whether they would do things differently from their parents in terms of breaking down the gender divide. Many of the participants focused on the importance of education for girls. There was a strong feeling that supporting girls to consider an independent future was important and that progress isn’t just about acceptance from men, but about women’s ability to take responsibility and be independent. One (male) Senegalese participant said that he would be realistic with his daughters and tell them that men were a waste of their time and that they should be mistresses of their own destiny. Another participant said that she would share the tasks given to the children in the house equally between the boys and girls. A different member of the group said that she was inspired by the western approach of breaking down barriers between parents and children and working together to talk about issues and problems and that she wanted to bring her children up in this way.
One young woman said that it was difficult to balance one’s own intellectual convictions about what is acceptable and unacceptable and the realities of everyday life. She said that she had spoken to a well-known Senegalese female role-model; a leader in the women’s movement and asked her how she did this. This woman is happily married, she said that each of us has to find our own approach; our own balance.
At the end of the discussion, it was announced that the Yoff Young Women’s Football Team would be coming in to watch ‘Bend it Like Beckham’ and the suggestion was made that the next topic should be ‘The role of sport in society’.
Further reading in English
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0014/001469/146983e.pdf
http://www.indexmundi.com/senegal/gender-parity.html
http://www.afrol.com/articles/24891
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/29/obama.fair.pay/index.html
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/SGstudyvaw.htm
[iii] ‘WAG’ is a term coined by the British Press to describe the Wives And Girlfriends of (highly paid) international level footballers. ‘Wannabes’ is common parlance for ‘People who want to be’. Thus, WAG Wannabes are women who devote all their time and energy to finding a rich partner or husband.
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